Transcript: Religion in the 1800 Election with Ed Larson
Religion has profoundly influenced the sweeping American narrative, perhaps more than any other force in our history, from the time before European colonization to the present. The start-up National Museum of American Religion is working to build a museum in the nation's capital that will share the story of what religion has done to America and what America has done to religion, inviting all to explore the role of religion in shaping the social, political, economic, and cultural lives of Americans and thus America itself.
I’m your host Chris Stevenson – join me for our twelve-part podcast series, Religion and the American Experience, as we follow scholars deep into America’s religious history, and learn how it can inform and animate us as citizens grappling with complex questions of governance and American purpose in the 21st century.
Episodes will be released every Monday between now and the end of the year on Apple Podcast and Spotify.
Interviewer: Religion and the concept of religious freedom as a governing principle in the United States has always played a role in our politics and that includes in presidential elections. As we are all aware, 2020 has been no different. History can help us navigate today's contentious zone of church and state, and the contest between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in 1800 may be particularly beneficial.
Ed Larson author of A Magnificent Catastrophe: The Tumultuous Election of 1800, America's First Presidential Campaign, holds the Hugh and Hazel Darling Chair in Law and is University Professor of History at Pepperdine University. He has a PhD in the History of Science from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and a law degree from Harvard. Prior to becoming a professor, Larson practice law in Seattle and served as counsel for the U.S. House of Representatives in Washington, D.C. Mr. Larson is the author or co-author of fourteen books and over one hundred published articles, including the Pulitzer Prize-Winning Book Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial and America's Continuing Debate Over Science and Religion is latest book on Earth and science was published by Yale University Press in 2017. Mr. Larson was a resident scholar at the Rockefeller foundation's Bellagio study center held the Fulbright Program's John Adams Chair in American studies and served as an inaugural fellow at the library for the study of George Washington at Mount Vernon. Thank you, Ed, for being with us today.
Ed: Thank you for having me on the program.
Interviewer: Ed, in the introduction, you write of this contest between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in this way and I'm quoting here, "America's two greatest surviving revolutionary leaders had separated and the country was coming apart. One election took on extraordinary meaning," close quote. Why did you write that and what exactly does it mean?
Ed: When the country was founded, both in the Revolutionary War, when Adams and Jefferson were friends, and when the Constitution was drafted, with Washington taking over as president, again, with Adams as Vice President and Thomas Jefferson is Secretary of State, they work together.
But that's how all the Revolutionaries did, the leaders of the Revolution. They were yoked together and certainly there were loyalists versus patriots in Revolutionary America, but there wasn't a partisan divide. And when the Constitution was drafted, there was no notion, no sense, no even inkling of national political parties. So some states were divided with traditional party lines say, New York and Pennsylvania had established parties, political parties, but it wasn't a thing in the nation. And so they'd set up a system that did not conceive of political parties and that's how the original electoral college system worked, where they - where every state was expected to pick its best people. They could either do so in elections as most did or direct legislative pick. And those electors would then meet state by state in each state and vote. Each had two votes for the two people with up best qualified to lead the country. And that sort of notion, sure, the electors would be known locally, that's how they'd be elected. In theory, the Founding Fathers thought they would be elected in congressional districts where people would know them, and then they would have a sense of the best people in the country to run the system.
So there's just no, no notion of partisanship, but what had happened, late in Washington’s second term, Washington abhorred partisanship, Adams really did as well, two distinct political parties developed by the time Washington step down after two terms of office, a great believer in the rotation in office and serving as president isn't for power, it's for service, and so he steps down after two terms. And but - by this time, the outlines of two national political parties had started. One, surrounding Alexander Hamilton of which John Adams was part, the Federalist Party that believed in a strong federal government, believed in tariffs to protect manufacturing, believed in a vigorous military, supported trade with England at a time of growing International war between Revolutionary France and traditional Imperial England allied with the Austro-Hungarian Empire and what was emerging in Germany - Prussia. And so you, on a whole variety of issues. They split from another forming party, which was the Party of the Working People, Party of the Farmers, Party of Immigrants, uh, and it was coalescing around James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. James Madison was really the party leader. Now, The election was held under a sort of the old rules, the first time, but there were ink - there were notions of partnership surrounding at this would have been 1796 and in that election, because they use the old system that not really running as a tight party ticket. It turned out that the lead candidate of both factions, you call them then, came in first and second. Adams barely edged out by two electoral votes Jefferson so, Adams was President, Jefferson was Vice President.
Well, the next two - four years, the Adams administration was a catastrophe with respect to partisanship in America. These two parties exploded and there are a variety of reasons, none more important than the than the war, the worldwide war, which was trying to drag America in. France had been are our traditional ally, it had saved us during the revolution. England and been our old mother country. We traded enormously with both of them primarily with their colonies in the Caribbean, it was our main source of export, food exports to the Caribbean sugar colonies of the incredibly wealthy sugar colonies of Barbados and Jamaica, and the other ones down in the Caribbean. And the two countries were pulling us apart. Now Jefferson, because of his historic interest in anti-monarchism, hope that the French Revolution would turn out well and traditional ties and he'd served as Ambassador France, his party leaned toward France. Adam's party leaned, because of Hamilton, who believed he wanted - as he said he wanted to make America into a better England. An England with more freedoms, but still like England, a manufacturing country where Jefferson wanted an agricultural country. So there were a lot of things particularly the war that pulled these two parties apart.
And so that by 1800 when Jefferson and Adams launched the first real campaign for president, we're talking about organizing, we're talking about get-out-the-vote campaigns, we're talking about raising funds, we're talking about every member of Congress all of whom had been elected on a nonpartisan basis. Every single member of Congress, House and Senate had split up and we're part of Partisan Caucuses. There were party newspapers so that every town would have at least two newspapers funded from central sources. Jefferson/Madison would give money to one, Hamilton and his people would give money to the other. And so in every town, and I read them for the book, it would be like today, if you watch Fox News for a while and MSNBC, you get two different views of the world. Same facts, different world. Well, the facts are reconfigured, same story told in a very different way.
And so America by 1800, had truly pulled apart into two distinct camps, built around Madison's, well, it's tough to know what that party’s called because they call themselves Republicans, their opponents called themselves Democrats, which is a name that historians tend to use, Republican and Democratic Party or the Jeffersonian Party on one side and then Hamilton's Federalist Party which, because everyone knew Hamilton couldn't win anything, he was so unpopular that they ran - ran again with the hopes of winning a more moderate candidate, Adams. And so you had a rematch of the Adams-Jefferson fight, but not fought as really a pure factions, but both prepare civilly four years before. Now, this time, it was no holds barred. It was rock-gut that politics and to push that, and Jefferson excepted a hard-partisan Aaron Burr is his running mate because Aaron Burr could deliver New York. He envisioned so many of the ... Hamilton was good at this too, hardcore partition politics, but Burr is a master of it. And so Jefferson and Burr would have been one ticket. Jefferson for President, Burr intended to be Vice President, and Adams running with his - his new running mate now, now that he had a party ticket, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, the largest slave owner in the South trying to combat and reach just get Southern votes, because otherwise, the thought would be they'd be for Jefferson.
Interviewer: Thank you for painting that picture. I'd like to move straight to the chapter, "For God and Party." Can you tell us about the state of religion and Religious Freedom in 1800 America?
Ed: Religion has always played, as you noted, an important part in American life and American society and it did so in 1800. 1800's a funny time because it's - it's between the Great Awakening and - sometimes called the Second Great Awakening of the Great Revival. There was a tremendous revival of religion before the Revolution led by a variety, George Whitefield coming over for - Whitefield coming over from England, the Wesley's, um, Methodist Movement, Baptist, a surge in that. And then, later on, there's going to be the, um, in the beginning in the 1820s, you'll have the Great Revival which really cements America as a - as a Protestant Nation, so you're in that in-between period.
And the revolution sort of shook things up with everything. Before the Revolution, most states, not every state, but most states had established churches and that meant you had a church that was favored by the government and received tax money. In the South, that tended to be the old Anglican Church, which during the war split and became the Episcopal church because it broke its ties with the crown. And in the North, in New England intended to be the Congregational Church, which was a pretty much a Calvinist church the [(14:00)] descendant of the Puritan church, and they were the established church in places like Massachusetts and Connecticut. And then, you had a couple places which traditionally didn't have an established church. You had a Quaker-friendly Pennsylvania. You had Baptist-friendly Rhode Island that did not establish churches and you did not have to profess belief in God or Christ. In most other states, it was pretty - pretty close. Most states had, um, religious tests for office. You had to be profess belief with God, and God in some states, profess belief in Jesus Christ. You really couldn't be a Catholic in Massachusetts. There'd never been a mass held in - in Massachusetts, sort of odd given the name of the names and mass in Massachusetts, but it had been very much dominated and they had an established church, the Congregational Church, the Calvinistic Congregational Church.
But during the revolution, you sort of had a bubbling up of that and with the overthrow of the Anglican Church, the Episcopal never had quite the standing, so in southern states led by Jefferson and Madison in Virginia, the Episcopal Church was disestablished. And you had the beginnings of a Revival Movement with growth of Methodism and growth of Baptist churches also an increased immigration of Lutherans in these areas in, you also - in Pennsylvania you had more Anabaptist coming in Mennonites, coming in. And then, in New England though, you had the Congregational Church hanging on and remaining established. But among the elites with the revolution you had a - and it was partly - partly the revolution, partly just the age of the enlightenment, you had a growing [(16:00)] amount of Deism, but even more Unitarianism. The difference being with Unitarianism, you still have an active God, you don't - you don't rely on Christ, but you do believe that typically Unitarians back then would believe in an active Providence. George Washington's a classic example of that, deeply believed in God, deeply believed in Providence, but didn't accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God; Jesus Christ was a teacher. So that would be - Franklin may be played with Deism earlier, but he - Benjamin Franklin, but he moved over in that respect, John Adams certainly moved in that respect becoming some sort of a Unitarian. Thomas Jefferson, you know, moved into Deism but then he moved later on into a Unitarianism sort of viewpoint. So you had that, so you had the elites. Hamilton would move in that direction. He led the elites, great growth in, Unitarianism or Providential Theism is how the great, there's a really fine Evangelical historian at Messiah College John Fea, and he calls it providential, uh - Providential Theism and I think that really captures, and I think he invented that term.
And you had that at that top, you still had some strongly Christian leaders like John Jay, there were some, but you had the country, a growing, you had a breakdown and establishment throughout most of the country except New England. And you had a rise in Baptists, Catholics, more Catholics were coming in the country, Lutheranism and a lot of this Methodism, a lot of these believe deeply in their religious. Religion meant a lot to them, the Baptist, but they believed in the separation of church and state because they had seen the limitations of America when you had a favored church and these were all dissenting groups, [(18:00)] whether you'd be Catholic or Jewish or back then, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans. They relished the growing freedom of religion in America and they viewed that freedom in America, get rid of kings, get rid of monarchs, get rid of their toady churches that back them up and let religion be free. That's part of their vision of America. So that dynamism is all swirling around at the time of the election of 1800.
Interviewer: So can you briefly summarize then how the Federalists, Adams' party, and Republicans, Jefferson's party, saw religion in their approach to governing at the end of the 18th century?
Ed: Truly both of them took religion very seriously. Jefferson was really quite the religious scholar. He published his own version of the Bible. He knew his - he knew his religion and religion meant a lot to him just as it had with Franklin. When you get Adams and - and Washington, they don't seem quite as interested. But Adams comes from New England, and the Federalists in general, and this would include people like Governor Morris who is a - who was a senator from New York and a writer, key writer of the Constitution. He was a total Atheist. There weren't many Atheists back then, and he was and yet, these people tended to believe that religion, because you know - democracy was something new. Republican Government was something new. How do you trust the people? And they believed that belief in God was essential. Even if they didn't believe in themselves because elites, you know, don't have - elites can be trusted because they're elites. But the common people, they have this belief that if they didn't believe in God, you couldn't trust them. You couldn't trust them to not lie, not cheat ... because God was what made people moral. [(20:00)] And so they deeply believe that government needed the prop of religion. You needed - That was very much a civil religion. It wasn't, you know what you or I might do is, you know, this spirit in you. No, it's a civil religion and they believe deeply in civil religion.
So Adams, when he was president would call days of prayer and fasting. I mean, people who knew him well said, "What a hypocrite?" “He doesn’t believe any of this stuff himself”, but he did believe in it for the country, and he went to church. Washington went to church too. He had left the church before. While President, he went to church be all - he has left before communion because he couldn't bring himself to take communion because of the meaning of communion. So he go to church for the ... and then, leave. Um, Adam stayed for the whole thing and he would call days of prayer and fasting and he presented himself as the candidate of established religion.
Now, Jefferson thought it was all hypocritical because he knew Adams and he thought we had the same religious beliefs basically. But he thought that Adams had played the religion card quietly, four years before in the election of 1796 - he had thought that the Federalists had quietly ... because there wasn't a major campaign but there was a whispering campaign. He thought they'd played religion against him and he just said, "That's not going to happen again. We're going to answer them led by Madison who is the party leader. We're going to answer these guys point by point." And so, you had the Federalists wrapping themselves in religion. And you had Jefferson's people saying, "Well, Jefferson just as religious as Adams. Jefferson is a member of the Episcopal Church." You'd read articles, you'd read broadsides. You can read them all the time. We don't know [(22:00)] whether he goes more or less than Adams. But he's, you know, he's a Christian, he's believer in Christianity. And, but then they twisted it on him; the twist was they - while the Federals were reaching out to the established Christians and saying, "You can't have ... Jefferson's a Deist or worse." By that time he wasn’t, he was a Unitarian but he's a Deist or worse, worse being Atheist. "You can't trust him," and they picked through his writings. "He never mentions God in the Declaration of Independence. He wrote the Declaration and doesn't mention God. How can that be? How can you elect such a person?" And one time, and he was the author of "The Virginia Bill for the Separation," basically Religious Freedom, where they disestablish the Episcopal Church. "He's the author of that. He doesn't believe in a state church."
And so they kept pounding on that and - and Jefferson would come back and so he made it directly, his party made direct pleas to these new vibrant religions, whether it be Lutheranism or - or the Calvinist in the - in Southern States, the Baptist, the, the Methodist, which were growing, um, certainly, the Catholics, reached out to all of them and said, "That guy wants to establish…." The rub against Adams all along when he was a monarchist. He wants to be King John the First and turn it over to his son, John Quincy, John the Second. He built a big army. Well, he built an army during the - during the - during his term of office because he feared that France was going to invade. It was a foundless fear, Adams had actually believed it but personally, but it was a sort of a trumped-up war. He also had the Alien and Sedition Acts, wich Jefferson thought were unconstitutional that protect estate. Taxes have gone up to pay for a whole fleet of naval ships. He started a war on the high seas [(24:00)] with the French to, [(24:00)] ostensibly to protect American shipping. Jefferson said it made it worse. The taxes were high. He's trying - He's trying to take over. He's trying to be a monarch. He's trying to restore monarchy. And the established church played into that because dissident religions had always felt think of the pilgrims that left England.
They left England because they couldn't stand an established church in England, appealed to those people and so, Baptists, especially in Virginia and other places over in Rhode Island went behind - went behind Jefferson. Jefferson played the religion card hard and he says, "I believe in religion and I believe everybody should be free to practice their own religion." So he played on his support for Religious Freedom. While Adam said, "You can't trust an Atheist. You can't trust a Deist. You can't trust these people. We need to have a Christian America," and the church that he really appears - that - that appealed to is a growing Presbyterian Church.
So you see a divide between this new Presbyterian Church as well as the Congregational Church in New England, which of course backed Adams cause that traditionally what he'd been. And then on the other side, but the Congregational Churches by this time is sort of losing its religion anyway. And then on the other side, you see the dissident groups, especially the churches brought in by the immigrants. Immigrants, because Adams had passed an immigration restriction laws and tried to throw out all the immigrants, a naturalization law as part of his America First Policy as President. These immigrants who tended to be Lutherans or Baptist or Mennonites or some sort of, some of them were Jews certainly, a lot were Catholics, alot from Ireland. These people rally behind Jefferson so you ended up having this divide over religion, and if you read the articles and newspaper, if you read [(26:00)] the stitches, if you read the op-ed pieces or the letters to the editor, I mean, both sides, people backing in Jefferson fear that their religion would literally be abolished and they would be forced to support the State Church if Adams won, Jefferson's people. The people for Adams thought Jefferson was going to turn America into another France at this time during the Revolution France. Revolutionary France had outlawed the Catholic Church and closed, turned Notre Dame into a Temple of Reason and, um, that's what they said, that's what they were told in the Federalist newspapers that that's what Jefferson was going to do.
A story I love is, there's this one - when Jefferson wins, there's this one older person in a town in Connecticut, which was a Federalist stronghold with an established church who goes over to a - a person he knew in town who he wasn't very close to, he happened to be the editor of the local Jeffersonian newspaper and had his Bible and said, "Will you hold my Bible for me?" And he said, "Why?" "Well, I've heard Jefferson. So once he becomes President, he's going to come and take all of our Bibles and I don't think they'd think of looking in your house for it." So that's the fear that was actually palatable in America by the time of the election.
Interviewer: I read in your book this ad that the Federalist newspaper called The Gazette of the United States printed almost daily you write in September and October of 1800. Can you - So I can quote it here from your book and then maybe you can ...
Ed: Sure.
Interviewer: ... elaborate a bit. I mean, it has everything to do with what you just said so,….
Ed: And in his preface of that I should note that this wasn't just any newspaper. Um, they had Flagship [(28:00)] newspapers because - and this was the Flagship Federalist Paper. This was it. And if you read and I have, you know, basically all the newspapers, they just reprinted, the you had - you had the Gazette of the United States, this one. You have the Aurora which was the key, um, Jeffersonian newspaper, um, and published in both in the Capitol, Philadelphia. Um, and then, lesser importance, but this was the anchor of the party. This was like Fox News or MSNBC. This was the core and this ad you're talking about, every day in big, big bold letters on the front page with a big black mark border so it just dominates the front page and I'll let you read it.
Interviewer: Quote, "The only question to be asked by every American laying his hand on his heart is, shall I continue in allegiance to God and a religious president or impiously declare for Jefferson and no God?" Close quote.
Ed: That's how they pitched it in and it was picked up as the party line which again, Jefferson - Jefferson's people came out so strong. It says - It's simply not true. It's simply not true. All they're talking about is an established church. And Jefferson's is as good a Christian as Adams, which is probably factually correct though neither of them would be qualified as very good Christians. In the way, I would define that term about believing in Christ as your Savior. I don't think either would have said that but they - they, um - it was, um, and Jefferson's people came back and said, "No, we'll protect your religion," and it turns out that backfires because of the enthusiasm of the Baptists and the Lutherans and the Catholics.
In fact, [(30:00)] later - later after the election, just as Jefferson thought that the religion card had defeated him four years earlier, John Adams later, after reflecting on the election, he says, it was very close again. I mean, it was it was extremely- it was razor-thin both elections and Jefferson only won because thanks to Aaron Burr who carried New York. He lost a few electoral votes here and there other places, um and the result is he won a narrow victory, one-state victory where he lost a one-state victory before, so we're talking about a one-state flip, nothing big. But Adams later said, "You know, what lost me was religion. They just said after it was all over, they said, 'Give me an Infidel. Give me an Atheist. Give me anything but a Presbyterian President’.'" Because the idea back then is Presbyterian was going to push an established church. And you know, the funny thing is Adams was never a Presbyterian.
Interviewer: The Republican newspaper, Aurora presented, the choice as quote, "One between an established church, a religious test, and an order of priesthood with the Federalists. Or Religious Liberty, the rights of conscience, no priesthood, truth, and Jefferson." I'd like to - to go back a little bit and ask you to tell us what Jefferson did in Virginia to push - to push Religious Freedom, to push the separation of church and state that made him such a Religious Freedom revolutionary.
Ed: That's a wonderful question because the way the Aurora was painting it, just want to underline. They had a consistent message throughout all thirteen columns. Well, um, by that time, sixteen states, every state. Whether you're in Vermont or South Carolina, [(32:00)] Georgia, Tennessee, it's consistent. The two parties had consistent messaging, which is pretty impressive because we never had parties like that before.
But the messaging as you're picking up, was both sides took religion seriously. Both sides played for the religious vote. Both took religious voters seriously and made really, for all their superficial, you know, you sort of read it, it's really not superficial, um, in the sense that, "Yeah, it's worded in a little tacky way." But both of them are making strong arguments. In the way of Jefferson, what Jefferson built on was Jefferson had worked hard. He'd been governor. He was governor. He had pushed the disestablishment of the Anglican Church, even though he was an Anglican, even though he was traditionally been an Episcopalian, remained an Episcopalian. And by the way, when he becomes President, he goes to church regularly, to a Baptist Church. He does as President just as Washington and Adams had. He took religions seriously.
But what he had done is over the entrenched opposition of the Anglican Church and the Virginia Gentry, he worked hand-in-glove with James Madison to pass a law that said, "We no longer have a religious test for office," By that, you don't have to, as you did in most states, had to say, swear that you believe in God or swear that you believe In Christ. I mean, both of those existed. He got rid of that for Virginia, that had always been the law before. And it also said that no money, no money shall go to, no government money should go to support the any church, and that every church is free. And it's written if you read the statute. It's written in the [(34:00)] , couched, very much in religious language that this is the way you honor God.
And whenever Jefferson spoke publicly about this, and he did regularly, he said, "I deeply believe in religious consciousness; I have my own beliefs. I have my own religious beliefs. What they are between me and God," he'd say. He wouldn't go in at length to his own religious beliefs, but every person should have the freedom to believe and practice their faith and not be forced to support any other religion belief. But it was always couched as "This is the religion as it says right in the statute, most pleasing to God." Now, Madison, of course, had gone to Princeton University, Princeton College. And Princeton College, was very much a reli - when he went there, it was very much a deeply religious school. So he had with sort of Scottish Presbyterianism and he had - he knew this religion too, just as Jefferson knew it. And they - and - And so they couched in religious terms and he always spoke consistently in that way, and that ends up being crucial for both.
Madison wins his election for Cong ... he runs for Congress in the very first election and he's running against James Monroe as an Anti-Federalist, he's running in Federalist in Anti-Federalist District, but he wraps himself up into - into the statute for Religious Freedom. He says, "This is what I gave you," and because it's sort of the Hill Country, there's a lot of Lutherans and there's some Baptists, there's some Methodists, and they all rally to him and he narrowly wins victory. So, he had had the experience of running on religion, and if you looked at it, then he offers the first, the First Amendment which includes Anti-Establishment Clause. He backs that, he pushes that through single-handedly almost, he pushes it through Congress, [(36:00)] nobody else seemed to care about the Bill of Rights but Madison and, um, then when he finally dies, when Jefferson dies, if you- if you go to his grave, he lists three accomplishments on his grave. That's it. He doesn't list being President of the United States. One of the three lists is that he's the “Author of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom," that's one of the three he wants to highlight.
Interviewer: How revolutionary was that? In your estimation.
Ed: Well it was - it was worldwide - it was revolutionary. It was revolutionary in the sense that it wouldn't happen in England. They're still an established church in England, wouldn't have happened in Canada. It wouldn't happen in China. It wouldn't happen in the Arab world. Um, but it wasn't - What it was was the leading edge of freedom in America.
That America had been - the United States, yes, they still had established religions in most of the states, most of the colonies before the Revolution. But with the Revolution, people started valuing individual freedom and really what more important is your religious freedom and they look to the king and the kings ... didn't matter was the King of France or the King of Sweden or the King of - of um - of England. Ever since the days of Constantine and certainly, the Byzantine Empire, religion props up a monarch. And since we were in very anti-monarchical times, the idea of people should have freedom of conscious, now, that had come to America in part because many dissenters did come to America. Quakers came to America, Puritans came to America, Pilgrims came to America, certainly people [(38:00)] from France, the Protestants driven out of France, they came to America, the Huguenots, and so, some Jews came to America, some Catholics came to America, Maryland in particular around Philadelphia as well. And so we had some of that background, so you take that background and you throw on top of it a revolution where your overturning monarchical ways. Yes, it was revolutionary, but it was in the logical path toward liberty and freedom with which America was moving.
And then, you get the shocking experience of France where France, when they overthrow the king who had been a, you know, a tyrant in France, “let them eat cake”. And the French people had been, you know, terribly treated by the monarchy and the nobility. Well, the Catholic Church, which had been such a visible prop of the monarchy goes with it. And so you have this - there it was really revolutionary, but there it was an expunging of religion as happened later in Mexico. There was an expunging of Catholicism. If you ever want to read a wonderful book that I love by Graham Greene, The Power of the Glory talks about, you know, what was happening to the Catholic Church in Mexico. That was to come soon. You already had the situation in France and Jefferson was more - what was happening with Jefferson and religious freedom in America was more within the evolutionary American tradition. And it led, I deeply believe, and I think most historians would agree to this. It helped lay the foundation for the great revival that was coming. The - The Great Awakening had opened up a variety of religious beliefs and weakened the established churches as people with the Great Awakening came to have a once again a deeper personal relationship with God and with religion, same way with the Great Awakening. [(40:00)] You would have again with the Great Revival, but there, it's even more diverse because you have Mormonism coming up, you have a variety of different pseudo-Protestant beliefs develop, but you also have an enormous growth among Baptist and Methodist and particularly those two, particularly Baptist and the Methodist. So it's part of that trend and this opening - this idea that America is opening, "We're going to protect you and your religious beliefs." Freedom – Freedom, free exercise, but also prevent you from being - from established religion, um, imposing religion on you, let you be free in this way. This created the - the fertile soil that has made it so that religion has remained vibrant in America much more so than in Europe, which was sort of still bundled down with established religions because even established religion even comes back in France after you have the restoration of the monarchy there.
Interviewer: Thank you. That's a great description of - of sort of Jefferson in his legacy with regards to Religious Freedom in the context of the world. I appreciate that.
Ed: If I can add one thing I know. That's where certainly the Federalist got it wrong. The Federalist always, that's why the party disappeared, it always looked backward. They thought you need an established church for integrity. They also thought you need a mercantilist - I'm going to make a parallel here, a mercantilist, economic system. Mercantilism is basically government guided and you have high tariffs to protect particular industries. You do not have laissez-faire capitalism. You don't have [(42:00)] the free market and that's what they thought because they look back how France and England operated. They look back. We need stability. We need an established church. They look back to England and France how it had been under the ancient regime. And Jefferson breaks with that. He had read Adam Smith. He brings in, Hamilton's gone at Treasury and he brings an Albert Gallatin who is a great believer in - in open free capitalism and not government protection and - and letting capitalism operate. And we had a booming economy thanks to that. And same way with religion, so they're parallels and they were our future. Jefferson, in so many ways, um, he gets criticized for this area and that area, deservedly so, slavery and lots of things. But boy, on the economy and religion, what he laid the foundation of, for whatever reason, it - with those respects, he often called the election of 1800, "The Revolution of 1800." That it was a revolution just as 1776 had been a revolution. And in the economy and religion, It really was in a way, it was a completion of the - of where America was moving.
Interviewer: We have been talking with Ed Larson, author of A Magnificent Catastrophe: The Tumultuous Election of 1800, America's First Presidential Campaign, who holds the Hugh and Hazel Darling Chair in Law and is University Professor of History at Pepperdine University. Ed, we are very grateful that you participated with us today. It's been very enlightening. I hope that's been helpful to our listeners.
Ed: Thank you so much. It's been great talking with you.
The podcast series Religion in the American Experience is a project of the National Museum of American Religion. Episodes are released each Monday starting October 19, 2020 through the end of the year on Podbean, under Story of American Religion, Apple Podcast and Spotify.
I’m your host Chris Stevenson – join me for our twelve-part podcast series, Religion and the American Experience, as we follow scholars deep into America’s religious history, and learn how it can inform and animate us as citizens grappling with complex questions of governance and American purpose in the 21st century.
Episodes will be released every Monday between now and the end of the year on Apple Podcast and Spotify.
Interviewer: Religion and the concept of religious freedom as a governing principle in the United States has always played a role in our politics and that includes in presidential elections. As we are all aware, 2020 has been no different. History can help us navigate today's contentious zone of church and state, and the contest between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in 1800 may be particularly beneficial.
Ed Larson author of A Magnificent Catastrophe: The Tumultuous Election of 1800, America's First Presidential Campaign, holds the Hugh and Hazel Darling Chair in Law and is University Professor of History at Pepperdine University. He has a PhD in the History of Science from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and a law degree from Harvard. Prior to becoming a professor, Larson practice law in Seattle and served as counsel for the U.S. House of Representatives in Washington, D.C. Mr. Larson is the author or co-author of fourteen books and over one hundred published articles, including the Pulitzer Prize-Winning Book Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial and America's Continuing Debate Over Science and Religion is latest book on Earth and science was published by Yale University Press in 2017. Mr. Larson was a resident scholar at the Rockefeller foundation's Bellagio study center held the Fulbright Program's John Adams Chair in American studies and served as an inaugural fellow at the library for the study of George Washington at Mount Vernon. Thank you, Ed, for being with us today.
Ed: Thank you for having me on the program.
Interviewer: Ed, in the introduction, you write of this contest between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in this way and I'm quoting here, "America's two greatest surviving revolutionary leaders had separated and the country was coming apart. One election took on extraordinary meaning," close quote. Why did you write that and what exactly does it mean?
Ed: When the country was founded, both in the Revolutionary War, when Adams and Jefferson were friends, and when the Constitution was drafted, with Washington taking over as president, again, with Adams as Vice President and Thomas Jefferson is Secretary of State, they work together.
But that's how all the Revolutionaries did, the leaders of the Revolution. They were yoked together and certainly there were loyalists versus patriots in Revolutionary America, but there wasn't a partisan divide. And when the Constitution was drafted, there was no notion, no sense, no even inkling of national political parties. So some states were divided with traditional party lines say, New York and Pennsylvania had established parties, political parties, but it wasn't a thing in the nation. And so they'd set up a system that did not conceive of political parties and that's how the original electoral college system worked, where they - where every state was expected to pick its best people. They could either do so in elections as most did or direct legislative pick. And those electors would then meet state by state in each state and vote. Each had two votes for the two people with up best qualified to lead the country. And that sort of notion, sure, the electors would be known locally, that's how they'd be elected. In theory, the Founding Fathers thought they would be elected in congressional districts where people would know them, and then they would have a sense of the best people in the country to run the system.
So there's just no, no notion of partisanship, but what had happened, late in Washington’s second term, Washington abhorred partisanship, Adams really did as well, two distinct political parties developed by the time Washington step down after two terms of office, a great believer in the rotation in office and serving as president isn't for power, it's for service, and so he steps down after two terms. And but - by this time, the outlines of two national political parties had started. One, surrounding Alexander Hamilton of which John Adams was part, the Federalist Party that believed in a strong federal government, believed in tariffs to protect manufacturing, believed in a vigorous military, supported trade with England at a time of growing International war between Revolutionary France and traditional Imperial England allied with the Austro-Hungarian Empire and what was emerging in Germany - Prussia. And so you, on a whole variety of issues. They split from another forming party, which was the Party of the Working People, Party of the Farmers, Party of Immigrants, uh, and it was coalescing around James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. James Madison was really the party leader. Now, The election was held under a sort of the old rules, the first time, but there were ink - there were notions of partnership surrounding at this would have been 1796 and in that election, because they use the old system that not really running as a tight party ticket. It turned out that the lead candidate of both factions, you call them then, came in first and second. Adams barely edged out by two electoral votes Jefferson so, Adams was President, Jefferson was Vice President.
Well, the next two - four years, the Adams administration was a catastrophe with respect to partisanship in America. These two parties exploded and there are a variety of reasons, none more important than the than the war, the worldwide war, which was trying to drag America in. France had been are our traditional ally, it had saved us during the revolution. England and been our old mother country. We traded enormously with both of them primarily with their colonies in the Caribbean, it was our main source of export, food exports to the Caribbean sugar colonies of the incredibly wealthy sugar colonies of Barbados and Jamaica, and the other ones down in the Caribbean. And the two countries were pulling us apart. Now Jefferson, because of his historic interest in anti-monarchism, hope that the French Revolution would turn out well and traditional ties and he'd served as Ambassador France, his party leaned toward France. Adam's party leaned, because of Hamilton, who believed he wanted - as he said he wanted to make America into a better England. An England with more freedoms, but still like England, a manufacturing country where Jefferson wanted an agricultural country. So there were a lot of things particularly the war that pulled these two parties apart.
And so that by 1800 when Jefferson and Adams launched the first real campaign for president, we're talking about organizing, we're talking about get-out-the-vote campaigns, we're talking about raising funds, we're talking about every member of Congress all of whom had been elected on a nonpartisan basis. Every single member of Congress, House and Senate had split up and we're part of Partisan Caucuses. There were party newspapers so that every town would have at least two newspapers funded from central sources. Jefferson/Madison would give money to one, Hamilton and his people would give money to the other. And so in every town, and I read them for the book, it would be like today, if you watch Fox News for a while and MSNBC, you get two different views of the world. Same facts, different world. Well, the facts are reconfigured, same story told in a very different way.
And so America by 1800, had truly pulled apart into two distinct camps, built around Madison's, well, it's tough to know what that party’s called because they call themselves Republicans, their opponents called themselves Democrats, which is a name that historians tend to use, Republican and Democratic Party or the Jeffersonian Party on one side and then Hamilton's Federalist Party which, because everyone knew Hamilton couldn't win anything, he was so unpopular that they ran - ran again with the hopes of winning a more moderate candidate, Adams. And so you had a rematch of the Adams-Jefferson fight, but not fought as really a pure factions, but both prepare civilly four years before. Now, this time, it was no holds barred. It was rock-gut that politics and to push that, and Jefferson excepted a hard-partisan Aaron Burr is his running mate because Aaron Burr could deliver New York. He envisioned so many of the ... Hamilton was good at this too, hardcore partition politics, but Burr is a master of it. And so Jefferson and Burr would have been one ticket. Jefferson for President, Burr intended to be Vice President, and Adams running with his - his new running mate now, now that he had a party ticket, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, the largest slave owner in the South trying to combat and reach just get Southern votes, because otherwise, the thought would be they'd be for Jefferson.
Interviewer: Thank you for painting that picture. I'd like to move straight to the chapter, "For God and Party." Can you tell us about the state of religion and Religious Freedom in 1800 America?
Ed: Religion has always played, as you noted, an important part in American life and American society and it did so in 1800. 1800's a funny time because it's - it's between the Great Awakening and - sometimes called the Second Great Awakening of the Great Revival. There was a tremendous revival of religion before the Revolution led by a variety, George Whitefield coming over for - Whitefield coming over from England, the Wesley's, um, Methodist Movement, Baptist, a surge in that. And then, later on, there's going to be the, um, in the beginning in the 1820s, you'll have the Great Revival which really cements America as a - as a Protestant Nation, so you're in that in-between period.
And the revolution sort of shook things up with everything. Before the Revolution, most states, not every state, but most states had established churches and that meant you had a church that was favored by the government and received tax money. In the South, that tended to be the old Anglican Church, which during the war split and became the Episcopal church because it broke its ties with the crown. And in the North, in New England intended to be the Congregational Church, which was a pretty much a Calvinist church the [(14:00)] descendant of the Puritan church, and they were the established church in places like Massachusetts and Connecticut. And then, you had a couple places which traditionally didn't have an established church. You had a Quaker-friendly Pennsylvania. You had Baptist-friendly Rhode Island that did not establish churches and you did not have to profess belief in God or Christ. In most other states, it was pretty - pretty close. Most states had, um, religious tests for office. You had to be profess belief with God, and God in some states, profess belief in Jesus Christ. You really couldn't be a Catholic in Massachusetts. There'd never been a mass held in - in Massachusetts, sort of odd given the name of the names and mass in Massachusetts, but it had been very much dominated and they had an established church, the Congregational Church, the Calvinistic Congregational Church.
But during the revolution, you sort of had a bubbling up of that and with the overthrow of the Anglican Church, the Episcopal never had quite the standing, so in southern states led by Jefferson and Madison in Virginia, the Episcopal Church was disestablished. And you had the beginnings of a Revival Movement with growth of Methodism and growth of Baptist churches also an increased immigration of Lutherans in these areas in, you also - in Pennsylvania you had more Anabaptist coming in Mennonites, coming in. And then, in New England though, you had the Congregational Church hanging on and remaining established. But among the elites with the revolution you had a - and it was partly - partly the revolution, partly just the age of the enlightenment, you had a growing [(16:00)] amount of Deism, but even more Unitarianism. The difference being with Unitarianism, you still have an active God, you don't - you don't rely on Christ, but you do believe that typically Unitarians back then would believe in an active Providence. George Washington's a classic example of that, deeply believed in God, deeply believed in Providence, but didn't accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God; Jesus Christ was a teacher. So that would be - Franklin may be played with Deism earlier, but he - Benjamin Franklin, but he moved over in that respect, John Adams certainly moved in that respect becoming some sort of a Unitarian. Thomas Jefferson, you know, moved into Deism but then he moved later on into a Unitarianism sort of viewpoint. So you had that, so you had the elites. Hamilton would move in that direction. He led the elites, great growth in, Unitarianism or Providential Theism is how the great, there's a really fine Evangelical historian at Messiah College John Fea, and he calls it providential, uh - Providential Theism and I think that really captures, and I think he invented that term.
And you had that at that top, you still had some strongly Christian leaders like John Jay, there were some, but you had the country, a growing, you had a breakdown and establishment throughout most of the country except New England. And you had a rise in Baptists, Catholics, more Catholics were coming in the country, Lutheranism and a lot of this Methodism, a lot of these believe deeply in their religious. Religion meant a lot to them, the Baptist, but they believed in the separation of church and state because they had seen the limitations of America when you had a favored church and these were all dissenting groups, [(18:00)] whether you'd be Catholic or Jewish or back then, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans. They relished the growing freedom of religion in America and they viewed that freedom in America, get rid of kings, get rid of monarchs, get rid of their toady churches that back them up and let religion be free. That's part of their vision of America. So that dynamism is all swirling around at the time of the election of 1800.
Interviewer: So can you briefly summarize then how the Federalists, Adams' party, and Republicans, Jefferson's party, saw religion in their approach to governing at the end of the 18th century?
Ed: Truly both of them took religion very seriously. Jefferson was really quite the religious scholar. He published his own version of the Bible. He knew his - he knew his religion and religion meant a lot to him just as it had with Franklin. When you get Adams and - and Washington, they don't seem quite as interested. But Adams comes from New England, and the Federalists in general, and this would include people like Governor Morris who is a - who was a senator from New York and a writer, key writer of the Constitution. He was a total Atheist. There weren't many Atheists back then, and he was and yet, these people tended to believe that religion, because you know - democracy was something new. Republican Government was something new. How do you trust the people? And they believed that belief in God was essential. Even if they didn't believe in themselves because elites, you know, don't have - elites can be trusted because they're elites. But the common people, they have this belief that if they didn't believe in God, you couldn't trust them. You couldn't trust them to not lie, not cheat ... because God was what made people moral. [(20:00)] And so they deeply believe that government needed the prop of religion. You needed - That was very much a civil religion. It wasn't, you know what you or I might do is, you know, this spirit in you. No, it's a civil religion and they believe deeply in civil religion.
So Adams, when he was president would call days of prayer and fasting. I mean, people who knew him well said, "What a hypocrite?" “He doesn’t believe any of this stuff himself”, but he did believe in it for the country, and he went to church. Washington went to church too. He had left the church before. While President, he went to church be all - he has left before communion because he couldn't bring himself to take communion because of the meaning of communion. So he go to church for the ... and then, leave. Um, Adam stayed for the whole thing and he would call days of prayer and fasting and he presented himself as the candidate of established religion.
Now, Jefferson thought it was all hypocritical because he knew Adams and he thought we had the same religious beliefs basically. But he thought that Adams had played the religion card quietly, four years before in the election of 1796 - he had thought that the Federalists had quietly ... because there wasn't a major campaign but there was a whispering campaign. He thought they'd played religion against him and he just said, "That's not going to happen again. We're going to answer them led by Madison who is the party leader. We're going to answer these guys point by point." And so, you had the Federalists wrapping themselves in religion. And you had Jefferson's people saying, "Well, Jefferson just as religious as Adams. Jefferson is a member of the Episcopal Church." You'd read articles, you'd read broadsides. You can read them all the time. We don't know [(22:00)] whether he goes more or less than Adams. But he's, you know, he's a Christian, he's believer in Christianity. And, but then they twisted it on him; the twist was they - while the Federals were reaching out to the established Christians and saying, "You can't have ... Jefferson's a Deist or worse." By that time he wasn’t, he was a Unitarian but he's a Deist or worse, worse being Atheist. "You can't trust him," and they picked through his writings. "He never mentions God in the Declaration of Independence. He wrote the Declaration and doesn't mention God. How can that be? How can you elect such a person?" And one time, and he was the author of "The Virginia Bill for the Separation," basically Religious Freedom, where they disestablish the Episcopal Church. "He's the author of that. He doesn't believe in a state church."
And so they kept pounding on that and - and Jefferson would come back and so he made it directly, his party made direct pleas to these new vibrant religions, whether it be Lutheranism or - or the Calvinist in the - in Southern States, the Baptist, the, the Methodist, which were growing, um, certainly, the Catholics, reached out to all of them and said, "That guy wants to establish…." The rub against Adams all along when he was a monarchist. He wants to be King John the First and turn it over to his son, John Quincy, John the Second. He built a big army. Well, he built an army during the - during the - during his term of office because he feared that France was going to invade. It was a foundless fear, Adams had actually believed it but personally, but it was a sort of a trumped-up war. He also had the Alien and Sedition Acts, wich Jefferson thought were unconstitutional that protect estate. Taxes have gone up to pay for a whole fleet of naval ships. He started a war on the high seas [(24:00)] with the French to, [(24:00)] ostensibly to protect American shipping. Jefferson said it made it worse. The taxes were high. He's trying - He's trying to take over. He's trying to be a monarch. He's trying to restore monarchy. And the established church played into that because dissident religions had always felt think of the pilgrims that left England.
They left England because they couldn't stand an established church in England, appealed to those people and so, Baptists, especially in Virginia and other places over in Rhode Island went behind - went behind Jefferson. Jefferson played the religion card hard and he says, "I believe in religion and I believe everybody should be free to practice their own religion." So he played on his support for Religious Freedom. While Adam said, "You can't trust an Atheist. You can't trust a Deist. You can't trust these people. We need to have a Christian America," and the church that he really appears - that - that appealed to is a growing Presbyterian Church.
So you see a divide between this new Presbyterian Church as well as the Congregational Church in New England, which of course backed Adams cause that traditionally what he'd been. And then on the other side, but the Congregational Churches by this time is sort of losing its religion anyway. And then on the other side, you see the dissident groups, especially the churches brought in by the immigrants. Immigrants, because Adams had passed an immigration restriction laws and tried to throw out all the immigrants, a naturalization law as part of his America First Policy as President. These immigrants who tended to be Lutherans or Baptist or Mennonites or some sort of, some of them were Jews certainly, a lot were Catholics, alot from Ireland. These people rally behind Jefferson so you ended up having this divide over religion, and if you read the articles and newspaper, if you read [(26:00)] the stitches, if you read the op-ed pieces or the letters to the editor, I mean, both sides, people backing in Jefferson fear that their religion would literally be abolished and they would be forced to support the State Church if Adams won, Jefferson's people. The people for Adams thought Jefferson was going to turn America into another France at this time during the Revolution France. Revolutionary France had outlawed the Catholic Church and closed, turned Notre Dame into a Temple of Reason and, um, that's what they said, that's what they were told in the Federalist newspapers that that's what Jefferson was going to do.
A story I love is, there's this one - when Jefferson wins, there's this one older person in a town in Connecticut, which was a Federalist stronghold with an established church who goes over to a - a person he knew in town who he wasn't very close to, he happened to be the editor of the local Jeffersonian newspaper and had his Bible and said, "Will you hold my Bible for me?" And he said, "Why?" "Well, I've heard Jefferson. So once he becomes President, he's going to come and take all of our Bibles and I don't think they'd think of looking in your house for it." So that's the fear that was actually palatable in America by the time of the election.
Interviewer: I read in your book this ad that the Federalist newspaper called The Gazette of the United States printed almost daily you write in September and October of 1800. Can you - So I can quote it here from your book and then maybe you can ...
Ed: Sure.
Interviewer: ... elaborate a bit. I mean, it has everything to do with what you just said so,….
Ed: And in his preface of that I should note that this wasn't just any newspaper. Um, they had Flagship [(28:00)] newspapers because - and this was the Flagship Federalist Paper. This was it. And if you read and I have, you know, basically all the newspapers, they just reprinted, the you had - you had the Gazette of the United States, this one. You have the Aurora which was the key, um, Jeffersonian newspaper, um, and published in both in the Capitol, Philadelphia. Um, and then, lesser importance, but this was the anchor of the party. This was like Fox News or MSNBC. This was the core and this ad you're talking about, every day in big, big bold letters on the front page with a big black mark border so it just dominates the front page and I'll let you read it.
Interviewer: Quote, "The only question to be asked by every American laying his hand on his heart is, shall I continue in allegiance to God and a religious president or impiously declare for Jefferson and no God?" Close quote.
Ed: That's how they pitched it in and it was picked up as the party line which again, Jefferson - Jefferson's people came out so strong. It says - It's simply not true. It's simply not true. All they're talking about is an established church. And Jefferson's is as good a Christian as Adams, which is probably factually correct though neither of them would be qualified as very good Christians. In the way, I would define that term about believing in Christ as your Savior. I don't think either would have said that but they - they, um - it was, um, and Jefferson's people came back and said, "No, we'll protect your religion," and it turns out that backfires because of the enthusiasm of the Baptists and the Lutherans and the Catholics.
In fact, [(30:00)] later - later after the election, just as Jefferson thought that the religion card had defeated him four years earlier, John Adams later, after reflecting on the election, he says, it was very close again. I mean, it was it was extremely- it was razor-thin both elections and Jefferson only won because thanks to Aaron Burr who carried New York. He lost a few electoral votes here and there other places, um and the result is he won a narrow victory, one-state victory where he lost a one-state victory before, so we're talking about a one-state flip, nothing big. But Adams later said, "You know, what lost me was religion. They just said after it was all over, they said, 'Give me an Infidel. Give me an Atheist. Give me anything but a Presbyterian President’.'" Because the idea back then is Presbyterian was going to push an established church. And you know, the funny thing is Adams was never a Presbyterian.
Interviewer: The Republican newspaper, Aurora presented, the choice as quote, "One between an established church, a religious test, and an order of priesthood with the Federalists. Or Religious Liberty, the rights of conscience, no priesthood, truth, and Jefferson." I'd like to - to go back a little bit and ask you to tell us what Jefferson did in Virginia to push - to push Religious Freedom, to push the separation of church and state that made him such a Religious Freedom revolutionary.
Ed: That's a wonderful question because the way the Aurora was painting it, just want to underline. They had a consistent message throughout all thirteen columns. Well, um, by that time, sixteen states, every state. Whether you're in Vermont or South Carolina, [(32:00)] Georgia, Tennessee, it's consistent. The two parties had consistent messaging, which is pretty impressive because we never had parties like that before.
But the messaging as you're picking up, was both sides took religion seriously. Both sides played for the religious vote. Both took religious voters seriously and made really, for all their superficial, you know, you sort of read it, it's really not superficial, um, in the sense that, "Yeah, it's worded in a little tacky way." But both of them are making strong arguments. In the way of Jefferson, what Jefferson built on was Jefferson had worked hard. He'd been governor. He was governor. He had pushed the disestablishment of the Anglican Church, even though he was an Anglican, even though he was traditionally been an Episcopalian, remained an Episcopalian. And by the way, when he becomes President, he goes to church regularly, to a Baptist Church. He does as President just as Washington and Adams had. He took religions seriously.
But what he had done is over the entrenched opposition of the Anglican Church and the Virginia Gentry, he worked hand-in-glove with James Madison to pass a law that said, "We no longer have a religious test for office," By that, you don't have to, as you did in most states, had to say, swear that you believe in God or swear that you believe In Christ. I mean, both of those existed. He got rid of that for Virginia, that had always been the law before. And it also said that no money, no money shall go to, no government money should go to support the any church, and that every church is free. And it's written if you read the statute. It's written in the [(34:00)] , couched, very much in religious language that this is the way you honor God.
And whenever Jefferson spoke publicly about this, and he did regularly, he said, "I deeply believe in religious consciousness; I have my own beliefs. I have my own religious beliefs. What they are between me and God," he'd say. He wouldn't go in at length to his own religious beliefs, but every person should have the freedom to believe and practice their faith and not be forced to support any other religion belief. But it was always couched as "This is the religion as it says right in the statute, most pleasing to God." Now, Madison, of course, had gone to Princeton University, Princeton College. And Princeton College, was very much a reli - when he went there, it was very much a deeply religious school. So he had with sort of Scottish Presbyterianism and he had - he knew this religion too, just as Jefferson knew it. And they - and - And so they couched in religious terms and he always spoke consistently in that way, and that ends up being crucial for both.
Madison wins his election for Cong ... he runs for Congress in the very first election and he's running against James Monroe as an Anti-Federalist, he's running in Federalist in Anti-Federalist District, but he wraps himself up into - into the statute for Religious Freedom. He says, "This is what I gave you," and because it's sort of the Hill Country, there's a lot of Lutherans and there's some Baptists, there's some Methodists, and they all rally to him and he narrowly wins victory. So, he had had the experience of running on religion, and if you looked at it, then he offers the first, the First Amendment which includes Anti-Establishment Clause. He backs that, he pushes that through single-handedly almost, he pushes it through Congress, [(36:00)] nobody else seemed to care about the Bill of Rights but Madison and, um, then when he finally dies, when Jefferson dies, if you- if you go to his grave, he lists three accomplishments on his grave. That's it. He doesn't list being President of the United States. One of the three lists is that he's the “Author of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom," that's one of the three he wants to highlight.
Interviewer: How revolutionary was that? In your estimation.
Ed: Well it was - it was worldwide - it was revolutionary. It was revolutionary in the sense that it wouldn't happen in England. They're still an established church in England, wouldn't have happened in Canada. It wouldn't happen in China. It wouldn't happen in the Arab world. Um, but it wasn't - What it was was the leading edge of freedom in America.
That America had been - the United States, yes, they still had established religions in most of the states, most of the colonies before the Revolution. But with the Revolution, people started valuing individual freedom and really what more important is your religious freedom and they look to the king and the kings ... didn't matter was the King of France or the King of Sweden or the King of - of um - of England. Ever since the days of Constantine and certainly, the Byzantine Empire, religion props up a monarch. And since we were in very anti-monarchical times, the idea of people should have freedom of conscious, now, that had come to America in part because many dissenters did come to America. Quakers came to America, Puritans came to America, Pilgrims came to America, certainly people [(38:00)] from France, the Protestants driven out of France, they came to America, the Huguenots, and so, some Jews came to America, some Catholics came to America, Maryland in particular around Philadelphia as well. And so we had some of that background, so you take that background and you throw on top of it a revolution where your overturning monarchical ways. Yes, it was revolutionary, but it was in the logical path toward liberty and freedom with which America was moving.
And then, you get the shocking experience of France where France, when they overthrow the king who had been a, you know, a tyrant in France, “let them eat cake”. And the French people had been, you know, terribly treated by the monarchy and the nobility. Well, the Catholic Church, which had been such a visible prop of the monarchy goes with it. And so you have this - there it was really revolutionary, but there it was an expunging of religion as happened later in Mexico. There was an expunging of Catholicism. If you ever want to read a wonderful book that I love by Graham Greene, The Power of the Glory talks about, you know, what was happening to the Catholic Church in Mexico. That was to come soon. You already had the situation in France and Jefferson was more - what was happening with Jefferson and religious freedom in America was more within the evolutionary American tradition. And it led, I deeply believe, and I think most historians would agree to this. It helped lay the foundation for the great revival that was coming. The - The Great Awakening had opened up a variety of religious beliefs and weakened the established churches as people with the Great Awakening came to have a once again a deeper personal relationship with God and with religion, same way with the Great Awakening. [(40:00)] You would have again with the Great Revival, but there, it's even more diverse because you have Mormonism coming up, you have a variety of different pseudo-Protestant beliefs develop, but you also have an enormous growth among Baptist and Methodist and particularly those two, particularly Baptist and the Methodist. So it's part of that trend and this opening - this idea that America is opening, "We're going to protect you and your religious beliefs." Freedom – Freedom, free exercise, but also prevent you from being - from established religion, um, imposing religion on you, let you be free in this way. This created the - the fertile soil that has made it so that religion has remained vibrant in America much more so than in Europe, which was sort of still bundled down with established religions because even established religion even comes back in France after you have the restoration of the monarchy there.
Interviewer: Thank you. That's a great description of - of sort of Jefferson in his legacy with regards to Religious Freedom in the context of the world. I appreciate that.
Ed: If I can add one thing I know. That's where certainly the Federalist got it wrong. The Federalist always, that's why the party disappeared, it always looked backward. They thought you need an established church for integrity. They also thought you need a mercantilist - I'm going to make a parallel here, a mercantilist, economic system. Mercantilism is basically government guided and you have high tariffs to protect particular industries. You do not have laissez-faire capitalism. You don't have [(42:00)] the free market and that's what they thought because they look back how France and England operated. They look back. We need stability. We need an established church. They look back to England and France how it had been under the ancient regime. And Jefferson breaks with that. He had read Adam Smith. He brings in, Hamilton's gone at Treasury and he brings an Albert Gallatin who is a great believer in - in open free capitalism and not government protection and - and letting capitalism operate. And we had a booming economy thanks to that. And same way with religion, so they're parallels and they were our future. Jefferson, in so many ways, um, he gets criticized for this area and that area, deservedly so, slavery and lots of things. But boy, on the economy and religion, what he laid the foundation of, for whatever reason, it - with those respects, he often called the election of 1800, "The Revolution of 1800." That it was a revolution just as 1776 had been a revolution. And in the economy and religion, It really was in a way, it was a completion of the - of where America was moving.
Interviewer: We have been talking with Ed Larson, author of A Magnificent Catastrophe: The Tumultuous Election of 1800, America's First Presidential Campaign, who holds the Hugh and Hazel Darling Chair in Law and is University Professor of History at Pepperdine University. Ed, we are very grateful that you participated with us today. It's been very enlightening. I hope that's been helpful to our listeners.
Ed: Thank you so much. It's been great talking with you.
The podcast series Religion in the American Experience is a project of the National Museum of American Religion. Episodes are released each Monday starting October 19, 2020 through the end of the year on Podbean, under Story of American Religion, Apple Podcast and Spotify.
